Talk:Same-sex marriage in the United States

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Opening paragraph problems[edit]

Currently, over half of the opening paragraph is used to define the terms "gay marriage" and "marriage equality". These may be reasonable in the generic same-sex marriage article, but that is a waste of prime real estate here; it does not give information specific to the topic of same-sex marriage in the United States, nor is it summarizing any part of the article. I tried deleting it, but Justthefacts9 (talk · contribs) reinserted it. I ask for other voices on whether it should remain.

Additionally, that same editor reverted my correcting of the description of Coretta Scott King to being MLKing's widow, as opposed to his wife. As the events being described were well after the death of MLK, the "widow" descriptor is more appropriate; legally, one stops being a wife when your spouse dies. The edit summary indicated that the reversion was because Coretta's own article indicated that that was the basis of her notability, but that article is currently in the past tense ("was the wife of") as she is dead. Before her death, that article described her as the widow. Again, I seek consensus to correct this. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:49, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Regarding the inclusion of the definitions of those terms, those brief references (which only take up a small portion of the lead overall) are helpful to readers as those are the common alternative terms for same-sex marriage. Regarding the description of Coretta Scott King as the wife of MLK, that is what she is notable for (rather than as his widow, as such) and how she is described in her Wikipedia article. --Justthefacts9 (talk) 06:13, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If we feel the need to convey definition for SSM to anyone who is confused, that can be handled simply by rephrasing the first sentence to contain a wikilink to same-sex marriage. And for someone who claims to be "Just the facts", that you want to include the lie that CSK was MLK's wife when she made that statement flies in the face of it.... and "widow" covers the facts more accurately, makes explicit that she had been his wife, and takes only one more letter. She was his widow for much longer than she was his wife. Two of the three sources listed quote her as saying that after she was MLK's wife, she was his widow. (Also, she is not just notable for having been married to MLK, she had her own impact on civil rights.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:17, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is no need to be needlessly offensive by saying, "And for someone who claims to be [...] that you want to include the lie [...]", which verges on a personal attack. You do make a valid point regarding Coretta Scott King. It simply seemed appropriate to use the descriptor "wife" rather than "widow" as she is, per se, notable as the wife of MLK (in addition to, of course, being a civil rights leader). --Justthefacts9 (talk) 13:54, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you don't want people to react to your user name, pick a less self-aggrandizing one. To suggest that she was not notable as the widow of MLK is to overlook decades of coverage of her. And phrasing it as if he were his wife decades after he died is simply false. --Nat Gertler (talk) 04:21, 23 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you serious? It's just a username. Per WP:NPA, "Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor." Don't be petty. --Justthefacts9 (talk) 05:01, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article currently describes Coretta Scott King as "a leader of the African-American civil rights movement and the wife of Martin Luther King Jr.". Given that she was the wife of MLK when she was leading the civil rights movement, is it not appropriate to describe her as such? --Justthefacts9 (talk) 05:17, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You may want to read up on CSK; she was not just a leader during the period when she was married to MLK. In fact, if you'd read up to the first sentence of the second paragraph of our article on her, you'd find "King played a prominent role in the years after her husband's assassination in 1968 when she took on the leadership of the struggle for racial equality herself and became active in the Women's Movement." She had her highest prominence as a widow, and was certainly a widow during the prime events being covered here. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:27, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That sentence, particularly "when she took on the leadership of the struggle for racial equality herself" is actually pertinent here. Given that, it may be acceptable to describe her as the "widow" of MLK (truly, it does not matter either way, but given your insistence). --Justthefacts9 (talk) 05:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Actually, facts truly do matter. It's not just that it "may" be acceptable to call her MLK's widow, a position which I am shocked would be at all in doubt; it is far preferable than calling her his wife decades after the fact. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:52, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, "facts truly do matter" as you put it and the fact here is that Coretta Scott King can accurately be described as either the wife or the widow of MLK. --Justthefacts9 (talk) 05:57, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Popular Culture section[edit]

Do we really need this? There are hundreds of TV shows that feature same sex couples. Unless the show was somehow culturally significant, I don't think we need it. Bkatcher (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As someone who contributed to the section, I'd be fine with it being axed. Just thought if it was there, it should be better. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think as a cultural history thing it would be good to keep in a curated form (first SSM on mainstream TV, first SSM on children's TV) with sources attesting importance, but agreed that we're at a point where it does not make sense to include every example. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 19:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Distinction between same-sex marriages and civil unions[edit]

This page feels factually incorrect to me, specifically the parts about Obama supporting same-sex marriages. He has explicitly stated that marriage is between a man and a woman.

“Marriage is between a man and a woman,” Obama says in an interview on Chicago public television during his U.S. Senate campaign, adding, “but what I also believe is that we have an obligation to make sure that gays and lesbians have the rights of citizenship that afford them visitations to hospitals, that allow them to transfer property to each other, to make sure they’re not discriminated against on the job.” He says homosexuality is not a choice and “for the most part, it is innate.” Obama distinguishes marriage from other civil rights, saying, “We have a set of traditions in place that I think need to be preserved.”

See: https://time.com/3816952/obama-gay-lesbian-transgender-lgbt-rights/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.105.33.21 (talk) 06:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Counter point to this, there seems to be substantiated claims that he was actually in favor, but felt compelled to conceal his view (lie for the sake of unpopular opinion).

See: https://time.com/3702584/gay-marriage-axelrod-obama/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.105.33.21 (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]